1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Waiting for "survival mode" to end.

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by Patrick7269, Apr 23, 2017.

  1. OnTheHighway

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2014
    Messages:
    3,934
    Likes Received:
    632
    Location:
    Florida
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Stating the obvious, this is one significant piece of the emotional puzzle where you should focus on finding closure and moving on. While nice to have been able to tell him directly how much you hate him, there may be other ways to achieve closure.

    It sounds like you had a relationship with your father similar to what I have with my mother. My mother caused significant emotional and physical abuse. She was an addict, weak, temperamental and selfish. To this day, I still struggle to look her in the eye when I see her, and I previously tried to minimize seeing her going to great lengths doing so (even moved to another country in part As a way to run from her).

    A good portion of my life living in the closet was attributed to the low self esteem, low self worth and low confidence I developed as a result of being "cared" by her as a child (among other traumas during my childhood which I have written about previously).

    While my relationship today will never be perfect, I did find an ability to move on emotionally after I married my husband, had lunch with her, and although not saying anything other than pleasantries, showed her with my husband sitting next to me how my life has found happiness and contentment despite the damage she did. I did a lot of work in advance before getting to a point of being able to have that lunch.

    Your circumstances are different of course. But I would imagine there are ways you can find closure and move on from the trauma. I can not tell you what it is, you obviously need to figure a way to do so for yourself. Maybe your counselor can help you find the right path to do so. But some suggestions might be to a) learn about his life and what made him tick, b) talk with family members and get their perspectives, c) talk with friends and hear there stories about him, d) talk to others whom have had similar experiences and realize your not alone, or e) simply write a letter telling him exactly how you feel (what you do with the letter is up to you).

    All of these approaches may be cathartic and help you to move on. And it sounds like you do need to find a way to move on. Your talking about it, which is a great starting point as is.....
     
    #21 OnTheHighway, Apr 26, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017
  2. greatwhale

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6,582
    Likes Received:
    413
    Location:
    Montreal
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Hi again,

    As OTH stated above, this is indeed significant:

    If you are familiar with Robert Bly, then you are also familiar with the mythology surrounding the wounds our fathers inflict on us.

    My biological father was absent from my life (one kind of wound), they divorced while I was still a toddler, but my mother remarried and I ended up with a brutal, physically abusive and humiliating stepfather who regularly called me the Mexican equivalent of faggot (Maricon), another kind of wound.

    To me, hate doesn't seem to be a strong enough word for how I have felt and still feel about my mother's second husband. After separating from her, he died in a car accident in 1972, with blood alcohol levels above the legal limit. I still consider that a good day.

    What's important is that I can today articulate my contempt for him somewhat dispassionately, I have not tried to understand him nor why he did what he did, I consider that a waste of time. I was not edified by that experience, nor was there any silver lining, it happened, it's over and done with.

    The only thing I learned is never to do what he did to me to anyone in my own life. I am, I think, kinder to others because I know what kind of suffering people can inflict on each other, and I do not wish that on anyone.

    There is a link between father-wounds and the mythical Katabasis I spoke about above, such wounds can take on greater significance if they can be understood as part of a fundamentally common human experience...again, this needs a guide and working on the "shadows".
     
    #22 greatwhale, Apr 27, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
  3. OnTheHighway

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2014
    Messages:
    3,934
    Likes Received:
    632
    Location:
    Florida
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    This rings very true to the final conclusions I came to regarding my mother; I can relate to how you have expressed it. There must be something to it (*hug*), and maybe the emotional goal Patrick7269 should set for himself.
     
  4. mnguy

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,377
    Likes Received:
    450
    Location:
    Mountain hermitage
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Hey Patrick, I'm sorry you're going through all this and if you find the solution please let us know. I'd love to know since I'm feeling a lot of the same and was thinking the other day of posting on here about it and then came across your post. It's so frustrating having this feeling that I can't pinpoint, what's causing it and how to resolve it. I was going to mention mindfulness and trying to stay with the feeling rather than trying to avoid it, but that's been addressed. I think it has helped me some, but it still comes back, but maybe it doesn't bother me as much even though I don't know exactly what it is. I like to understand things, have certainty and fix things, but I have to accept I can't always. I'm trying to accept what is, experience whatever it is and not push it away.

    I wonder if straight guys who have a happy family life get this feeling around our age too. If they do, would they think about it like us single gay guys do? I've been thinking about the path I thought life would follow and that it hasn't turned out that way so I feel lost and like the only milestone remaining is death. Previous goals were clear: high school, college, job, house, then was supposed to be marriage and kids and their life milestones. I wonder if there's an innate need for that role of being a father that I'm longing for or is it a learned expectation that is missing, like a nature or nurture question. I don't think I need to be a dad to be happy, but have been wondering if that is part of what I'm feeling. I suppose it relates to the fear we have of getting old and no one looking out for us not having kids. I try to accept the fear yet stay in the now, not worry about something that may never happen.

    Unlike you, I'm very isolated, mostly my fault, and I keep thinking if I got out more, joined groups, take a class, meetups, invite friends to my place, something social, would that help? But then I've thought, no, then I still come back to an empty house and when I do have social outings, I feel worse back home. I named it social hangover, haha. Since you have the social stuff going on, are more out than I am and still feel like something is missing, maybe that's not my answer either.

    This thread title made me think of when my therapist asked if I'm just existing. Survival mode and existing seemed related. Before he asked me that I had been thinking that I should accept that this is what the rest of my life is going to be, just getting by, not finding a compatible guy and try to be content, numb, neutral to it all. For a long time I kept wanting love, companionship, meaning, purpose, etc. Is the pain I feel the wanting or the not experiencing those things? Maybe if I could stop wanting more, accept what is, be content in the now, would that work?

    I know I write about me and what I'm feeling, but that's because this is what came up reading what you wrote and my hope is you won't feel alone and maybe a different perspective on a similar situation can be helpful. I'm not trying to hijack, the questions are more rhetorical musings, I dunno, just the way I process thoughts on your situation and how I write. I do hope you get some answers and feel better! Take care!
     
  5. justaguyinsf

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2016
    Messages:
    603
    Likes Received:
    375
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    I think we all have those milestones you mentioned impressed upon us at a young age and when some of them don't happen there is a tendency to become isolated. I know that has happened to me over the past few years since my daughter grew up and moved away (I used to be in a straight marriage, divorced about 20 years ago). I have realized that there is a lot more to life than following the prescribed milestones, and that what one needs to do is to think about what other goals one might have in life. Learn a musical instrument? Visit certain countries? Get a higher-education degree? Volunteer at a charity? Get a pilot's license (something I toy with)? Lots to do besides the standard goals!
     
  6. Patrick7269

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    Messages:
    514
    Likes Received:
    121
    Location:
    Seattle, WA, USA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    mnguy,

    Your post is really great and I think you've packed a lot of deep topics into a compressed space. I'll respond with my thoughts here. As always this is with the caveat that I'm writing from my experience only, and your mileage will vary.

    You and I are definitely similar in this regard. I tend to be very analytical and I solve problems by first understanding the "root cause". However, this is a different kind of problem; more like a dull ache in my heart. What confuses me is that my life is working just fine, and yet I can palpably sense that something critical is missing.

    I also think that I'm similar in that I try to push away discomfort by distracting myself, rather than accepting what is. It's probably an old pattern from years ago I would think.

    I've known several straight guys that do have this type of feeling, but I suspect they have more distractions at their disposal. I also think that they have the comfort of relative ease in social situations where they know they're basically okay. For us generally (but I'm writing about myself specifically here) there may be internalized homophobia that creates barriers - barriers to feeling loved and supported, barriers to connecting with others, and barriers to accepting and loving self. For gay men, these barriers increase the difficulty of handling mid-life challenges. In short I think straight men have very similar feelings at this age, but they have more support and fewer barriers.

    This is very interesting to me. You and I are the right age to remember the first wave of the AIDS epidemic. The devastation wiped out nearly an entire generation of gay men, and I think we feel this loss culturally today. In my opinion we suffer from a gap in our collective memory and a lack of mentorship and positive influence that a previous generation can bring. I wonder if we're confused about this phase of life because we lost so many men who would have been mentors and examples.

    The AIDS epidemic put sex, youth, risk, and death in the psyche of most sexually active gay men of a certain age. The hateful message of AIDS = DEATH (in the protests by Westboro Baptist Church, to give just one example) didn't just disappear when I turned my attention somewhere else - that hate got inside, took a different form, and now is affecting my life in unseen (but felt) ways. The loneliness and isolation had its roots in messages of hate from long ago. Even today we still have so much left to do to eradicate hate.

    More broadly, I think gay men of our age generally did not get positive examples of life scripts growing up. I experienced homophobia from all directions, and I was hunkered down emotionally just surviving - not thinking about who I am, what I have to bring to the world, or how I want to life my own life. Even today I fear that I'm bland because my life was shaped in large part by fear, by conformity, and by a deep desire to be something that I'm not. I'm very glad that in my 40s I'm understanding what shaped me, for better or worse, so that I can consciously take responsibility for myself. Straight men have this realization of full responsibility for their lives much sooner, probably as they begin families.

    You even mention death itself. For over a year now I've been preoccupied with the question of the afterlife, God, and all of our unknowable questions about existence beyond death. I witnessed a tragic police-involved shooting (of an isolated, mentally ill gay man I might add) in the summer of 2013. I had not confronted death in such an ugly and strange way before. I think I've been preoccupied with death trying to cope with that event, and of course in middle age we all begin to glimpse our own mortality.

    I've stumbled with these questions a lot. I love children and I yearn to be with my nieces and nephews; it gives me a sense of purpose and place in my life to be able to show them my love. If they were my own kids I could only imagine how strong that feeling would be. I remember when I was almost 30 I went through a huge bout of depression when I realized what fatherhood really looks like and what I was missing, and the loss felt very biological in nature. Today that biological potency of the loss has diminished but I still feel like I've let a core part of myself die by not being a father. Today I'm fine being an uncle because no lie is required, I deal with significant depression, and I don't have a partner to raise children with.

    I also think that my family's rejection based on religion (evangelical Christianity) plays a role here. Religion reinforces concepts of what is "natural", and to me procreation is the ultimate natural beauty. It sometimes shames me to think that what I long for and find "natural" isn't procreative, and I even sometimes fear that being gay isn't really natural to begin with.

    I consider myself gay, but I've also harbored curiosity about straight sex because of its "blessed" quality of bringing new life. I counter this by trying to have faith that my own nature is still "natural" and I will not tell a lie with the most intimate parts of my own body. These are matters of faith no more challenging than any other, but I think for us LGBT folk they tend to go more to the core of who we are since they are often accompanied by shame, rejection, and ostracism from the church and sometimes family of origin.

    I know. *hugs*

    This is a fear of mine too and I try to remember that my nieces and nephews love me very much, and not all parents grow into old age being loved by their children. I think we tend to idealize the other side of the coming out proposition. Still, I contend that having a family out of fear is still living a life in fear, and this (in my opinion) cannot bring peace, no matter how conventional and easy it seems.

    The genuine connections we have are the only solace in life, and yet too much socialization can feel lonely if it's only in response to the fear of being alone. I feel most alone when I get home and my place is quiet, but I can also feel alone in a crowd that I perceive to be "normal" (unlike me it seems) and having a good time. To me this may mean that social engagement is not always the antidote to loneliness. The root of the problem is not being content and happy; the loneliness (I think) is actually a manifestation of not being at peace. For me personally this is probably due to internalized homophobia and a deep alienation from myself from years ago.

    Yes. This is a large part of how I feel. I think long ago I decided to settle for mere existence instead of really being alive. "Survival mode" for me seems closely related to being shut down, not taking enough risk, favoring safety at the cost of fulfillment, and just getting by safely rather than taking risks to get what I want. While I think that becoming somewhat risk-averse comes with age, it's also a symptom of being overly careful about life as a result of shame, internalized homophobia, and an instinct to seek safety. I see these traits in myself going back decades.

    I'll be criticized for saying this, but I think the LGBT community (or the gay male community specifically) can still be really toxic and has a number of mental health challenges. For this reason I'm not content to just get by alone by accepting things as they are. I'm going to keep looking for what I want and I refuse to settle. That may mean more pain from not "fitting in" with the gay mainstream, at least where I live. At the same time I suspect that I'm far from unique in this. It's all about finding the right ways of meeting people and also being comfortable with yourself in the meantime.

    You've contributed some awesome thinking here, thank you! I see several perspectives that I had overlooked. Thanks for going into this more deeply.

    Again, my whole purpose in writing extensively about this is to try to grapple with loss, accept it, and move on. I think the way out of "survival mode" is to work through issues, not to dismiss them or try to go around them.

    Thanks,

    Patrick
     
  7. Krater

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Patrick there is so much in your post.

    I am a 55 year old male - Background from me: Grew up with an alcoholic father who was abusive to anyone who got in his way or that he could control or pick on - mainly my mother. I have six brothers I am the youngest.

    I grew up mainly in alone and numb mode hiding inside of myself, hiding from the world just in isolation even at times to myself. I had trust issues. I was scared, which led to huge amounts of anxiety and nervousness. I used to experience dread like something bad was going to happen. Whenever I felt a rise of an emotion that I couldn't deal with I buried it. I lived sad, never wanted to talk about myself to anyone. I became social awkward and preferred it because people left me alone. I wasn't in touch with my emotions (self awareness) or centered as some people say.
    I turned inward because it was only then that I felt safe and I trusted myself. I wasn't aware of what lay beyond my anxiety and the feeling of dread and actually didn't want to know. No-one knew me because no-one could get close enough and if I did let someone in. after awhile I sabotaged the friendship.

    Why am I saying all of this - well I identify with you in what you have been feeling. I'm not trying to position myself in any way as an expert or to say that I have the answers. I can only say what my journey looked like to become where I am today. I am not the person today of what I have just described. I got invited to a men's group that was based on Robert Bly's teaching. It took me 2 years of stalling before I actually went along to the group.

    That was 6 years ago, I have been out for about 3 years now (I think). Basically the group and support of the men had a dramatic change on my life and still does to this day. I read alot and still continue to discover myself. I am no longer ruled by my past demons, I still have memories and sometimes bad days and now more willing to enter what great whale described 'Katabasis'.

    What can I offer you: I wont say its this or that. except - You know that you can trust yourself.



    Embrace your emotional pain. Don't listen to your head that offers cheap distractions or the reasonings that try to justify. Listen to your heart, your emotional pain or hurts is not your enemy. Be willing to enter the cave that you fear. Talk it through with your therapist. Yes it going to be like digging out a splinter that has been long buried and doesn't want to come out. Its not an easy process.

    To embrace your emotional pain not something I say lightly. Think of it as a journey like on a train, but its the his journey its not the destination. It is the journey into your own shadow. Listen to your body. Go with what your body wants to do. We live in a society where our thinking and logic rules. We run away from our emotions esp the ones we don't understand try to distract ourselves, cover it up, avoid.. the mind goes into damage control trying to fix it.