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This is not my variety of bi-gender

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by KitSylph, Dec 2, 2016.

  1. KitSylph

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    I was looking for podcasts on being bi-gender today, and I was excited when I found one on Radiolab, which is a terrific program. As I listened, though, I was more and more unhappy, and while I think I've learned a couple of things that will be helpful for me, I'm not sure I'm glad I heard it.

    First, here's the link: Radiolab Presents: Invisibilia. Apart from some additional information in the last five minutes or so of the show, it's entirely about one person, Paige Azeroth, AMAB who at the time the interview was done identified as bi-gender and, more than that, described her experience as being that her gender identity would flip back and forth sometimes multiple times a day without notice or pattern or control. There are researchers who are studying people like Paige, and they apparently consider the condition she had a disorder and call it alternating gender incongruity, or AGI.

    For what it's worth, my experience of being bi-gender is very different: I have some control, but circumstances tend to push me in one direction or the other sometimes. If I focus in the right way, though, I can usually get into the gender I like. However, if I neglect either gender for too long, it starts making serious problems for me. I also end up spending some time somewhere vaguely in the middle, trying to swim to one end or another, because I only really feel settled and happy when I know what gender I am. I know there are several ways to be bi-gender, and that's only one of them, but I wanted to mention it to contrast with this involuntary flipping experience.

    That's not my particular variety of bi-gender, and it was distressing that the show really focused on the flipping part and not the gender identity part. Isn't the gender identity part more fascinating and broadly applicable? *Sigh* Paige also had hormone imbalances and hormone therapies that could have been contributing to the "flipping." Meanwhile, several of the gender experts the producers contacted said that they didn't believe Paige or people like her were really experiencing the flipping, and that they were actually psychotic.

    They weren't talking about bi-gender people in general, but I'm not sure many listeners were making those fine distinctions. It kind of undermined my faith in this thing that I am even being a real thing, and as you know, that way lies madness. Fortunately, when I was talking to my wife about it tonight, she cut in with "Well, it's a construct like anything else, right?" She doesn't mean that it's something we consciously choose, just that our realities are based on how our minds have developed. :kiss:

    Oh, I failed to mention that Paige's story was one of confusion, of varying gender experience, then of finally beginning to get to a good place with her gender identity, at which point (she reports) her wife left her. Ouch, that was painful to hear about.

    I didn't think it would be getting worse, but it did get worse. The producer followed up with Paige about a year after the initial contact, and Paige's estrogen therapy seemed to have carried her out of bi-genderism and into the better-known area of becoming a trans woman. The brief snippet from Paige then was her talking excitedly of how she felt much better and being the regular kind of trans, as hard as it is, was so much easier than being bi-gender.

    I don't fault anyone for this...not Paige, or the producers, or Radiolab, but this is a terrible story. "There was this bi-gender person, and by the way she had this unusual condition related to her bi-genderism that experts say is fake, and then she got over her bi-genderism and became a full trans woman, the end."

    I'd love to hear an inspiring story or two of bi-gender people. There must be some of those somewhere, right? Because as convenient as it would be for this not to be a thing, this is so a thing in my life.
     
  2. StormyVale

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    I don't "flip" either. I usually wake up and attempt to determine what gender I am and it usually stays the same throughout the day. Paige did not seem all that bigender to me based on her saying that she is 20% in guy mode and 80% in girl mode. Also she never talks about being both at the same time or dualgender moments in the beginning.

    I honestly stopped listening after a little bit because it just doesn't fit with my picture of bigender in the many forms I have seen elsewhere on the internet. Brin/Paul on the youtube channel of Bigender.net whom i watched a few videos of is somewhat informative, but her/his personality is kind of not something i enjoyed.

    Reading your post about this person honestly does make me almost self conscious about being bigender, and puts thoughts in my head of "am I really experiencing a gender shift or am I just imagining this?" It is honestly just a construction of reality based on our point of view of the world.

    I agree with Paige only on that last point you make... Being bigender is harder than transgender because you have to deal with both halves of your identity.

    I also have yet to find any inpspiring bigender stories. Bigender.net feels like it hasn't been used in a while or has not been posted to in a while. tumblr would be my next stop, but I have not really ventured there yet. Youtube is pretty lacking in bigender people. There are a few people but they blog about other things and or are of a younger age group (~20s to 30s?). There is one weird story about bigender dating where a girl is dating someone who is bigender, but it seems like it is from a 1990s talk show. I wish there was more information about people's experience with this too because it is obviously a thing and it obviously causes people a bit of stress trying to navigate through it on their own.
     
  3. Irisviel

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    Just because something causes stress doesn't means it's the cause, just because you name the symptom a certain way. Why would you believe someone more rather than experts?

    The brain is wired to a gender, there are neurological differences between men and women, and so on. It's not possible to be both, unless you have two brains and two sets of hormones that magically change. The lack of information stems from lack of evidence, and if you would rather take your life changing advice from Tumblr, well that's your decision but I would not feel safe in a community that also considers otherkin or whatever else as equally legitimate. Or, why would you trust a community of teenagers who invent their own "alternate science"? Because that's what tumblr is, community crafted pseudo reality.
     
  4. StormyVale

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    I don't take all my life changing advice from Tumblr. And I figure I am smart enough to filter through and find credible first person accounts of their experience with being bigender or trans or whatever. I personally wan't looking for definitions of each gender.


    I know that usually the brain is wired to one gender. It is based on your genes and how you developed and all that. There are differences between men and women, which is how some of us know that we are not just one or the other. At least one or more of us on this site have experienced being one gender or the other for different amounts of time, and sometimes even both at once. I don't think that hormones are the end all be all for feeling like a man or woman.
     
  5. Irisviel

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    "Credible first person experience" is only what you arbitrarily choose to identify as such. What are the criteria for a credible experience? Because I suspect credible means fitting your confirmation bias.

    How can you feel both at once, does that mean your brain has 2 separate neurological structures? Brain is always wired to gender, that's how we know being transgender is 1)a thing 2)not a mental illness.

    Unless you want to say you display binary opposite traits at once, like you are more agreeable and less agreable at once, more and less empathetic at once... and not to mention, saying you shift from one to other entails you have some ultimate knowledge of which is which.

    Nobody "feels like an X" because nobody knows what other people feel like. It's a shortcut used, overused so much now people get confused about it. The way you identify your gender is by examining your responses to the environment and how they are in line or not in line with your body, what is your self image compared to what you are biologically. It can be tested.
     
  6. KitSylph

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    Hi Irisviel (can I call you Iris?),

    OK, first, I don't think you mean this, and maybe I'm being over-sensitive, but I experiencing what you've said as pretty invalidating. It sounds like you're saying that transgender is a thing, but implying that the specific kind of transgender experience called bi-gender is not a thing.

    It sounds as though you're saying "Based on my experience and how I picture the brain working, this isn't possible, so you're not feeling what you think you're feeling." Surely you've had uncaring and uninformed people tell you the exact same thing?

    I'm going to talk a little about neurology, but I admit I don't have a degree in neurology or anything like that. Even if I did, there's so much we still don't know about the brain, that I couldn't make any definitive statements about the validity of bi-genderism just based on theory.

    I have written about both psychology and neurology professionally, though, so I'm not starting from zero, and there are a couple of things I'd like to mention.

    First, in terms of not being able to feel anyone else's experience, are you familiar with mirror neurons? In case not, here's a quick summary from the American Psychological Association: "Mirror neurons are a type of brain cell that respond equally when we perform an action and when we witness someone else perform the same action."

    In other words, we don't have to be in another person's brain to experience at least some of what they experience. So I have the body of a male, but I've taken in a lot of female experience vicariously. Does that make me an authority on "how women feel?" Definitely not. For instance, neither of us ever has or ever will feel menstruation, and we'd be kidding ourselves if we imagined that has nothing to do with a woman's experience of life. So both of us have parts of our brains that have been tasked, pretty urgently, with learning as much as they can about how to be a woman. Men have estrogen, and women have testosterone, and for all the differences between genders, our bodies and our brains are very similar.

    But you point out that we'd have to have at least two different neurological systems to really have a male self and a female self. But we all have far more than two different neurological systems! For instance, do you know why humans really can't multitask well? It's because our brains are structured to focus on only one task at a time. When we're interrupted in the middle of a task and have to turn our attention to something else (like if we're cooking a complex dinner and then the phone rings and we have to talk to somebody about an event planned for later), our brains have to shut down the whole array of elements being used for cooking dinner and then fire up the whole array of elements needed to plan for later. We need a moment to switch gears.

    My genders feel similar to me, but on a much larger scale. My male and female sides share a lot of elements, just like cooking and planning for an event both require, for instance, language skills and predicting social situations. But they also have a lot of unique elements. The male elements were trained in there by society, and the female elements have had to train themselves. I know they're not very impressive female elements. I know I'm not an impressively feminine or complete female. But that doesn't mean I'm not female at all.

    Final point (I promise!): you've probably heard of Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID)? For anyone who doesn't know, that's the condition in which a person shows evidence of having multiple personalities who are separate and even sometimes isolated from each other. Well, did you know that the majority of subjects with DID in a study of DID and gender had at least one personality of the opposite gender? DID is a well-documented condition. Clearly the brain is capable of supporting two different gender constructs.

    I want to make it absolutely clear that bi-genderism and DID are not at all the same thing. We bi-gendered people have one personality, but two or more modes in which that personality is expressed. The separate gender elements exist, but they switch out within a much larger personality construct. They aren't even self-contained blocks: elements of my female self can be active at the same time as elements of my male self. I just usually find that problematic and try to avoid it, personally.

    You don't have to believe that I have a mode of being in which I actually am (neurologically) female, though I'd appreciate it if you'd take my word for it. However, it's hard to refute that the brain is perfectly capable of such a thing. Why in the world my brain would develop that way, whether from conception or from birth or from a very young age (at least some of this was already established by the time I was seven: I didn't consciously create it), I have no idea. But it did. And here we are.

    Kit
     
  7. darkcomesoon

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    Are you familiar with the brain map theory? The idea behind it is that each person has a map of their body in their brain which tells them which body parts they have, and trans people develop the brain map of the opposite sex, which is what causes dysphoria. It seems entirely plausible, and the minimal research that has been done supports it so far. Using that theory, there's no reason to rule out the possibility that a brain map could get "stuck in the middle" while developing. A brain map could develop with a mix of sex characteristics, or no sex characteristics at all. If this were proven to be true, it would give a scientific basis for both bigender and agender as real genders. Until we have more evidence, I don't think it's reasonable to completely rule it out.

    BUT, why does it even matter? I fully understand not wanting people to identify as trans or nonbinary just because of gender roles and stereotypes, but if a person is trans, why does it matter what specific label they use? I would bet that the vast majority of nonbinary people would fall under a binary trans label if you approach gender from a strictly scientific point of view. Why does it matter if they feel more comfortable socially or mentally or in any other way being nonbinary? It's not like these are "fake trans people" "invading" the community. They are trans people, and the specific label they use shouldn't matter to you.
     
  8. KitSylph

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    I was interested to read your post, Jesse. But...is it really necessary to speculate that we nonbinaries are really binary after all "from a scientific point of view"? Are psychology and neurology not scientific? Not that I've heard of any definitive scientific conclusions (pro or con) about bi-gendered people in any scientific realm. But it feels very similar to me as if someone suggested that trans people are really their birth gender "from a scientific point of view"...that is, it feels like people are being dismissed.
     
  9. Irisviel

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    It matters because by legitimizing those labels as equally real to being transgender gets people either stuck in questioning phase for much longer than necessary (while they try to dissect tiny differences between tumbr's 70+ genders), or makes them adopt a trans label instead of finding comfort in being a non comforming cis person, or sometimes, a crossdressing cis person. It does matter a lot, because helping people in the real world matters, and must be done accurately - meanwhile, politically and ideologically driven gender constructionist agenda enters law in places and begins to disrupt research and proper help for people who need it.
     
  10. StormyVale

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    IrisVeil,

    Being transgender yourself I thought that you would be a bit more understanding of people who also find themselves under the transgender umbrella of not having a gender that conforms to their gender assigned at birth. However, this doesn't seem to be the case based on your posts I have read in multiple different threads. I am all for discussion, but please be courteous and not discount anyone's personal experience. As Kit said:

    I agree with Kit with your posts being pretty invalidating towards those of us who do identify as bigender. We experience two different genders at different times or both at the same time. It often sounds like just being transgender under your definition (Male brain trapped in female body or female brain trapped in a male body) is correct but other transgender umbrella terms with more than one or no gender are wrong or not possible.

    Even today scientists don't know everything there is to know about the brain or even everything there is to know about the human body. It is very easy to say that it can't happen, but there is no definitive evidence one way or the other yet.

    And I want to also discuss what you said in your last post:

    If you type the word "Transgender" into the Google search engine the definition at the top of the page that first comes up is
    Now, no where in that definition does it say that you cannot have someone who identifies as multiple genders or no gender at all or some variation on that. How does using that definition of transgender cause problems under the law for anyone trying to seek help?

    Many people who are under the trans umbrella of terms don't transition or seek help. Does "helping people in the real world" only apply to those people who want to transition because they are one gender stuck in the body that is the other gender? I don't think that having precise language to label how you feel inside is going to disrupt research or getting proper help to those people who seek it out and need it.

    I have a problem with you invalidating other people's process of coming to an identity and the many labels available to people who may fall under the umbrella definition of trans. Many people take time to questions their gender identity because they need to figure out what it is they identify with and what they are experiencing. Also just because you cannot comprehend the other labels that fall under the trans umbrella of gender identities doesn't make them any less valid.

    Finally, I am not a non conforming cis gendered person, I am not a cis gendered person who cross dresses. I AM BIGENDER. I experience two different genders and sometimes both simultaneously.
     
  11. Hats

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    Irisviel, I'm not trying to attack you, but I have a couple of observations, because I think your justifications aren't watertight.

    A recent study (I can find it if you like) of many people in America from every race, economic, social et cetera background the researches could find, showed that people who identified as some flavour of non-binary had a higher attempted suicide rate than binary trans people like yourself. These people absolutely need help and support. So it's not really accurate to say that everyone who identifies as non binary is taking away support from those who need it.

    Secondly, in a response to me (admittedly in a different thread - sorry if I'm breaking any rules) you mentioned how you determine you are female because that is how you feel most validated. But if the things which make someone feel validated as a specific gender change from day to day or hour by hour, or there are several things which make them feel most validated as more than one gender simultaneously, then how is that any different from the argument you present for your own gender identity? Although you defend the binary nature of gender by saying there are brain scans which show different brain structures for men and women, you didn't say you had undertaken a scan of your own brain to check that the structure of it matches up with your identity as female. If that is the case, then by your own argument you do not know what your "actual" gender is, so how can you legitimately justify it whilst saying that non-binary people's identities are false? You would be basing it on your experience about how certain things make you feel, which is exactly what non-binary people are doing, and makes your arguments run dangerously close to accusations of hypocrisy.

    While I admit the things you say do make me feel uncomfortable, my main concern is that in trying to understand your point of view, I feel your arguments don't stack up.
     
  12. darkcomesoon

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    Honestly, I used that argument because I knew I was trying to appeal to someone for whom a firm scientific basis and neurological cause would be important.

    The issue with these debates is always that people are approaching with two different definitions of gender that really can't be reconciled. One side defines gender based on neurology, brain maps, and whatever else. The other side defines gender in less concrete ways. A person who believes gender is based strictly on neurology will never believe an argument that says nonbinary people are nonbinary just because they feel that way, because that is incompatible with the person's definition of gender. I chose to argue a non-cis person can use any label that makes them comfortable as long as they have non-cis neurology because I knew that argument was not completely incompatible with a neurological definition of gender.

    Personally, I don't believe that it makes sense to classify nonbinary people as "really binary from a scientific point of view". I define my own gender based on neurology because that's the only thing that makes sense to me (I don't have an internal sense of gender other than dysphoria, and I can't understand what it would feel like), but I still think people that define gender in less concrete ways are 100% the gender they say they are. Just because something doesn't make sense to me doesn't mean it isn't real.
    So, no, it's not necessary to speculate, but I thought it would be the most effective argument I could make (although it was apparently not), even if it wasn't ideal.
     
  13. StormyVale

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  14. Irisviel

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    Yes they are invalidating, because there is no validity to a claim that something like bigender is an existing phenomenon. There is no evidence despite extensive research into gender and sexuality. That is conclusive enough to say that this label is not a valid label. Saying that just because there is no proof of nonexistance it means the claim is true/plausible is a logical fallacy called argument from ignorance, and in simple terms, you can never prove a negative by means other than providing sufficient research and finding no evidence.


    Look up bill C-16 in Canada, or legislations that validate 30 genders and so on. Or, look how easy it is to change your gender legally and obtain hormones without any background check, without any supervision as to see whether you are actually trans or not. When you legislate something that doesn't exist in science, you punish actual research under non discrimination law, and prevent doctors from providing medical knowledge over fears of facing said law. Hate Lauren Southern becomes a man video all you like, but it proves what I'm saying.


    Getting people stuck in questioning phase, getting people to come out as trans while they are not. Or, having people delay transitioning, because being able to escape the decision by taking on a non binary label only to get chased down by dysphoria couple of years later - these are all bad influences. And hardly precise, too, especially that those terms are such that they deny reality of what gender is.

    I also invalidate the otherkin for the same reasons. And by the way, your logic of "no proof of nonexistance" could be used to successfully argue that otherkin are as real as any non binary label, for as long as you keep falling for the logical fallacy of arguing from ignorance.
    I'm not saying that to be nasty, it's how things are and I cannot conform to the idea of not acknowledging facts.


    I've never stated who you are, only that many non binary labels apply either to people who are not trans, or who are, but all are innacurate simply because they do not reflect reality. I'm curious though how you can tell that you experience 2 binary opposites, which both display different behavioral patterns, at the same time.

    No need to apologize, I always welcome civil discussion. Disagreement is not an attack.


    Yes, but not by reinforcing the confusion, rather, trying to help them deconstruct their problems, and untangle the reasons they feel this way. Bring people from non concrete and pseudo-knowledge towards actual solutions and actual answers. So yes, support is needed, but it must be accurate and truthful, beyond reasonable doubt.


    I did not scan my brain indeed. However I went to a clinical psychologist, did several interviews and tests that concluded I respond in male ways socially, but display female emotional and cognitive patterns, and that my symptoms are undoubtedly gender dysphoria. So in many ways, I did go to a professional to confirm whether I'm trans or not, and got a written opinion/diagnosis. I will also visit a psychiatry professional, to make sure I am not making a mistake - after all, many transition effects are irreversible. Too much? Well, better safe than sorry.


    I definitely appreciate taking the time to see where I'm coming from.

    The issue with those debates is that people will change definitions to suit their argument, while there is only one definition of gender that applies in discussing science. The definitions of gender that are outside of binary are an artificial invention to which there is no proof, and plenty of evidence to suggest the binary has not been debunked at all.

    Like I said before, discussion and disagreement is fine. It's impossible to argue a point without attacking the opposite claim, that is how debate works and I don't feel hurt at all. I appreciate the concern, though.

    Could also be varying levels of dysphoria that make you sometimes comfortable and sometimes not, which probably every trans person experiences. But, I'm not in your head so all I can do is provide a counter-interpretation for you to accept or dismiss by your own judgement.



    -----
    Took a while to respond, but there was plenty of points to adress that you called me out on, I didn't want to make my response incoherent.
     
    #14 Irisviel, Dec 5, 2016
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  15. AnguishXx

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    I feel like this. And wish I had precise information earlier...
     
  16. KitSylph

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    Nor that it isn't. So your whole purpose in being in this thread is to convince us we're not what we are? I'm amazed you don't have more insight into what's wrong with that. Please refresh yourself on the Code of Conduct. Here's the money quote:

    I could say more, but I don't think it's constructive. Here's hoping moderators step in to move things forward.
     
  17. Irisviel

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    I do not disrespect anyone by preventing people who read this site from *not* seeing counter arguments to misinformation that is eating up this subforum, has been since a very long, long time. My arguments are clearly stated, in civil manner, and based in all the knowledge I could learn. Being in opposition to pseudo-science is not a value judgement, and disrespect can only be qualified as such. I am quite familiar with the code of conduct, and fairly confident I haven't breached a single point.
     
    #17 Irisviel, Dec 5, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2016
  18. StormyVale

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    The problem is that there is very little research being done on gender to begin with and binary transgender usually gets the most attention because people want to transition to fit their body to their mental image of who they are. I am not saying because there is no evidence it automatically makes it true. I was saying that I know what I feel as do other bigender people. And science has yet to prove what we are experiencing is something else and not being bigender. ( I will address your point about "invalidating" later)


    I am in the USA, so I don't know about Laws in other countries. I do think that anyone who does want to transition should go see a medical professional and make sure that what they are feeling is truly feelings of being transgender. I think that it is important to take your time in figuring it out and it shouldn't be something you can do at the drop of a hat.

    Most people who question their gender identity are more likely to not be cis-gender because most cis-gender people don't question their gender. Obviously there is some misalignment with their gender identity and body to be questioning it. I don't know that people usually come out as trans unless they do know that they are trans. I think the delaying transitioning by being non-binary is kind of similar to people coming out as bisexual before coming out as gay or lesbian. It is a small step in the right direction but not as jarring or final either to themselves or those around them. Because if you are non-binary, you don't have to transition. (This is just a theory, if you are non-binary and have a different explanation please feel free to chime in).


    I am not falling for a logical fallacy of arguing from ignorance. I am arguing that there is very little evidence one way or the other for any of these identities. The medical community uses how we feel we are inside as a big portion of its determination whether we are transgender or not. So how can you say that people who feel bigender, or another nonbinary label of gender are wrong? Yes they may be still questioning their gender and how they feel, and it may change. but many people don't change their labels after they have found one that describes them.


    When I said invalidating (I cannot speak for KitSylph), I meant that it feels like you don't believe what we say we feeling. Like you are saying how we identify is wrong and that we are either cis or trans and anything in the middle or grey area of gender is not real and just a fantasy or made up for fun. That is why I stated my beliefs of who I am ... I know you didn't necessarily state who I am, but by disregarding all these labels it feels like you are disregarding people not just those labels.

    Funny you ask about experiencing two binary opposites, I am actually experiencing a day today where I am both male and female. Gender expression and gender identity are two different things. I have always expressed somewhere in the middle of female and male (tom-boy might be the correct term). I am pretty sure in an earlier post I talked about how I use my dysphoria to guide me. I will elaborate more further down in this post.

    I agree that accurate education and knowledge is important. Support for all genders is important. I feel that if you decide to transition or feel your gender is different seeking out a medical professional to help is a good idea. If you don't want to transition, but you identify with a certain label and it makes you happy, then I feel like it should be okay to identify as such because it isn't hurting anyone.


    Again, we base transgender assessments on how people feel, not the physical structures of the body. So how can you say that other labels are not correct when it is based on how a person feels their gender?


    Just because the binary has not been "debunked" or that their is no evidence of other genders, doesn't mean the other genders don't exist or are an "artificial invention". Yes they were constructed by people in society based on how they felt and because their gender didn't fit with the labels already available, but that doesn't mean they are less valid as identities.


    I felt like I had been a bit too attacking in my earlier post and didn't want to step on any toes so to speak. Discussion and disagreement are good.

    So as I said earlier in this feed and in the post you quoted, I use my dysphoria sort of as a guide. I don't always feel my gender at the same intensity, but I always know I am some gender, so genderflux doesn't really apply to me... It could be different levels of dysphoria. Not discounting that. However, if it were just differing levels of dysphoria I don't think I would feel connected to the different genders like I do on different days.

    Some days I feel like a girl and that my body fits my gender identity: I like my body and i feel comfortable in it. On days I experience being a guy, I feel like I have a phantom penis (sometimes) and I feel like I want to be flat chested with no boobs. I also feel like i have no connection to my boobs, and my body is a bit foreign to me. Also using male terminology and pronouns in relation to myself makes the dysphoria less, but using female pronouns would make it worse. On days where I am experiencing both genders, female and male pronouns both cause dysphoria but they/them/their pronouns are comfortable. I also know I am experiencing both genders because I feel both a connection to my boobs but also sometimes a phantom penis.

    My gender expression from this gender shift or switch does change in the colors and styles of dress I may choose, but it doesn't change my mannerisms too much. Sometimes my mannerisms may change slightly. I haven't noticed it too much yet, but as time goes on I may notice it more.

    I appreciate the logical and very well organized response. I feel like you play the devil's advocate sort of...

    ---------- Post added 5th Dec 2016 at 09:00 AM ----------



    Kit,

    I know it feels like Irisveil has broken something in the EC community rules. However, I think this whole discussion would be quantified under spirited discussion and debate. Irisveil has differing viewpoints from us and has expressed them in a somewhat civil way. It often sounds like Irisveil doesn't believe in our identity but that doesn't mean that our identities have been disrespected, just that one person doesn't believe in it. Irisveil has in no way disrespected other people's view points, she is just playing the devil's advocate and bringing up her points of view that happens to be the opposing argument. As much as I don't like it either sometimes, it is not against the rules.
     
  19. KitSylph

    Regular Member

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    StormyVale, I've been appreciating your responses, and I'm glad you aren't experiencing as much trouble as I am with some of the responses here.

    IrisViel, just want to let you know that I've stopped reading your posts. It's not my job to educate or convince you about the validity of bi-gender, and it's not your prerogative to tell me that my gender is fake. I have very limited time to spend here and want to spend it supporting others, offering information where I actually have some, and getting support and information in return. I have no interest in debating your opinions about my gender identity.
     
  20. KitSylph

    Regular Member

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    StormyVale, I've been appreciating your responses, and I'm glad you aren't experiencing as much trouble as I am with some of the responses here.

    IrisViel, just want to let you know that I've stopped reading your posts. It's not my job to educate or convince you about the validity of bi-gender, and it's not your prerogative to tell me that my gender is fake. I have very limited time to spend here and want to spend it supporting others, offering information where I actually have some, and getting support and information in return. I have no interest in debating your opinions about my gender identity.