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Standing or not for the Pledge of Allegiance?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by AlexanderDragon, Sep 29, 2016.

  1. 108

    108
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    I see no reason to be proud of the accomplishments of others. I did not choose America, I was simply born here. I am thankful to have been here than many other countries, but there is no rational reason for patriotism.
     
  2. Quantumreality

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    That's a very interesting point of view, iiimee. But when you compare America to Germany when you say that we should 'discard a very dark piece of our history', I assume you are referring to Nazi Germany. And I would ask what would prompt you to compare the Pledge of Allegiance to Nazi Germany...

    What is it, specifically, about the Pledge that you have issues with?

    And, again, I support anyone's right NOT to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. I'm just arguing why I think that that is a bad or misguided action.

    ---------- Post added 29th Sep 2016 at 08:50 PM ----------

    So, I guess the extreme of what you are saying, 108, is that all US military personnel should just resign and let whatever foreign powers want to invade the US, do so? I mean if there is no Patriotic reason to defend our Constitution and way of life, then there is no point in really being American in the first place, is there? *He said in an ironic, yet slightly sarcastic tone of voice, that still openly invites discussion...*
     
  3. 108

    108
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    I don't believe for a second that the majority of soldiers enlist for patriotic reasons. And yes, I do believe the majority need to resign with our governments blatant misuses of power the past 15 years.

    Our way of life is by no means unique to America.

    There is no point in "being American". That's such a nebulous statement that it doesn't make sense. You've romanticized this way too much.
     
    #23 108, Sep 29, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
  4. Quantumreality

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    Uhhh, 108.

    First, I totally respect your point of view.

    As you can imagine, I would tend to disagree with parts of it.

    Why do you believe that the majority of American military personnel choose to serve their Country? For money? Simply to have a job? Some other reason? (I'm just asking for your opinion/point of view.)


    As Americans, our way of life is quite unique. I've been in many countries around the world and I know of no other where individual rights are protected and respected as much as in America. Can you give me examples of other countries that allow the level of freedom that the US does?


    To me being American is far less about something nebulous like idealism and is about something much more concrete about being able to live a life the way you want to live it - even if that, in and of itself seems like an ideal, but the US Constitution allows for a reform/change of our laws so that any ideal of the People can ultimately become the law of the land.

    And, I respect your characterization of me as a Romantic. I am. But I've also been there and done that in war and peace overseas for many years. That, in and of itself has also made me jaded. But no less Patriotic, overall. You be the judge.
     
    #24 Quantumreality, Sep 29, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
  5. OGS

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    Wow, somebody's revved up. I lived in Utah for twenty years and grew up Mormon. I was kidding.:lol:
     
  6. Quantumreality

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    Sorry, OGS. I guess I really have allowed myself to get revved up on this thread! LOL! And right now, it feels good!

    I have some good Mormon friends, so that is a topic that can be close to home for me.:grin:
     
    #26 Quantumreality, Sep 29, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
  7. Tritri

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    I think the pledge of allegiance is stupid and I'm not proud of my country but I still stand because
    1) It feels weird not to.
    2) I don't want to draw attention to myself or explain myself to others.
    3) Standing during the pledge doesn't do anything. It's not like I'm giving a cake to somebody I hate.
     
  8. iiimee

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    I compare the pledge to Nazi Germany because forced nationalism is exactly what Nazi Germany was trying to enforce- you may think that's extreme, but really, I don't think I've seen so many extreme nationalists in a well-off country other than the US, and that's not a good thing. :/ It's not like the US completely opposed Nazi Germany in the beginning ofc, but that's a totally different topic... and my issues with the pledge? The message it conveys. Seriously, look at these lines:

    "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America."
    ^ I always explained my issues with this
    "One nation under god"
    ^ This is a major issue for me ofc, since I'm an Atheist. Also, as many people have said "one nation" sort of implies you belong to the country, and while you can say you do if you want to, it's definitely not a statement many people agree with. Anyway, why would I stand for a pledge that doesn't represent me? This is just my opinion, but I think that it's silly to stand for something if you don't agree with what it says.
     
  9. Czarcastic

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    I can't understand why it is such a huge thing.

    Australia technically has an Oath of Allegiance but it is only said for ceremonial events. For example, being sworn into parliament, armed forces or becoming a citizen.

    I can't see why it is said in schools other than to indoctrinate children never to question their country.
     
  10. Quantumreality

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    I hear you, iiimee. And I not only respect your point of view, I also agree with parts of it. I guess that, having lived overseas, especially in Europe, for some many years and actually talking to Germans who were former Nazis - not just reading history- including a former Waffen SS Officer who became a close friend of mine before he died a few years ago - I have a particular point of view.

    I totally agree with you that Nationalism should never be forced. But it is earned by your Country's place in the World based on (1) it's actions - which, unfortunately leave us seriously lacking today - and (2) it's laws and ideals, which I think lead the rest of the World, even today.

    As far as religion goes, I'm not particularly religious myself and I totally respect agnosticism and atheism. One of my friends is a Wiccan and we have great debates, but it's always out of respect.

    Having said all of that, I truly believe that you can't have an pledged oath of loyalty tp your country without invoking certain rites or beliefs. Whether or not you or I actually believe in them is ultimately irrelevant if you believe in the basic reason(s) for pledging loyalty to your Country - at the very least in appreciation for the freedoms it provides you that aren't a 'given' in other countries - so that it makes loyal to the founding beliefs of your Country something that you respect and appreciate. If that makes any sense.

    ---------- Post added 29th Sep 2016 at 10:29 PM ----------

    Czarcastic,

    It's not a huge thing. Even here in the US. But, to me and many others, it is a BASIC thing. You have to remember that America was founded on multiple beliefs and that we are a melting pot of the world. It's not about dictating any particular beliefs, rather about having Pride (oooh an LGBTQ term that touches everyone on this site) in who we are as a Nation.

    It's definitely NOT about indoctrination - that goes to iiimee's comparison to Nazi Germany.

    Obviously, I feel very strongly about this, but I don't know if I'm making sense to anyone of you...:icon_sad:
     
  11. midwestgirl89

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    There aren't many events that I attend right now that require standing for the pledge of allegiance but during high school I would stand but not put my hand over my heart. I don't like that it's forced on people to be Patriotic and say a mantra that may not even ring true to them.
     
  12. I AM MEOW

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    I see no point in nationalism, when I was little I actually started hating Texas for how annoyingly patriotic the people are here. I mean, I get it you care about your country, but please don't shove it down my throat. I find it pretty creepy that young children are required to recite the pledge almost daily. I also refuse to pledge to a country that denies certain groups of its citizens their rights. I live in one of eleven states suing the federal government because it was specified that title IX protects the right of transgender youth in schools. Within the past month a Texas legislator supposedly proposed a bill similar to HB2. The fact that there is a man who served 31 years of a life sentence for a crime he didn't commit will not have the charges dropped from his record, and he is only one of many. The fact that women's rights is still something to be debated is absurd (there are still people in power who don't want abortions to be allowed even in the case of rape). Reproductive coercion is perfectly legal in the US. Brock Turner got off with three months house arrest, but a black trans man who got raped and accidentally killed his attackers in self defense got charged with murder (I could see manslauger maybe, but there are supposed to be considerations for self defense). Our government doesn't protect LGBT individuals from discrimination. As someone who is vehemently anti-war, it greatly upsets me that most of my (federal) taxes go toward war, rather than things like education, or healthcare, or social services. I morally disagree with a lot of things going on in this country, there's no way in hell that I would stand for the pledge of allegiance or show any kind of nationalism whatsoever. Also this kinda turned into a bit of a rant...
     
    #32 I AM MEOW, Sep 29, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
  13. Quantumreality

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    midwestgirl89,

    I think you're missing the point. Much like iiimee. In America is ISN"T forced. It's a totally voluntary show of respect for your Country. If you choose not to show that respect, that is your choice, but I would encourage you to do it consciously and for thought-out reasons.
    That's all.
     
    #33 Quantumreality, Sep 29, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
  14. Quem

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    It's a choice in Satre's sense, I'm assuming? :slight_smile: I've heard stories of people getting in trouble for simply sitting out the pledge. Surely it's not as easy in certain areas to sit it out.

    Moreover, you equate "standing for the pledge" with "respecting your country". For some people, the pledge has little to do with respecting one's country. For instance, it could be more of a nationalistic ritual rather than sign of respect. =]

    I'm saying this because you're responding to most messages here, which gives me the impression that you're disappointed about some of the opinions here. I think it's important to realise that one can like (or love) his country without the pledge. Even people that are (outspokenly) against the pledge can like their country. (*hug*)
     
  15. Aussie792

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    I'm uncomfortable with the frequency with which many schools in the United States require the pledge of allegiance to be said. I am uncomfortable with the cultural pressure and symbolisation of ideological conformity it often entails by being so frequent, mindless and public. I do reject, however, that a nation which struggles to provide justice and liberty for all can't state that as an aspiration, which the pledge clearly means to do more than it means to state that liberty and justice for all are perfect in the US.

    While I believe the United States is a good country with fundamentally sound principles embedded into its constitution, justice system and political structures, I do not think such frequent displays of devotion are necessary or healthy. I think commitment to the US from American citizens is obviously important. But I also believe it's lunacy to think the pledge actually does that. Commitment to the rule of law, to justice, to equality and to democracy are not predicated on a single ritual.

    I would resent swearing an oath under God, which is never mandatory in Australia, just as I resent the (situational) requirement to swear an oath to the monarch in Australia. If a person wants to sit out such an oath in protest, then that's often a statement of honesty rather than churlishness.

    So sit it out, if you want. But to be rude or disruptive is pointless and distracts from the legitimate problems with the pledge. Politely reject the nationalism of having to repeat it so frequently and the mindlessness that ultimately ends up disrespecting the seriousness of a pledge of fealty to one's country, which should always be made in all seriousness of one's own volition.
     
    #35 Aussie792, Sep 30, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2016
  16. midwestgirl89

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    My point is that people are forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance every day of their lives from K-12. Kids don't have a choice when they're 5 years old to sit down. If they defy their teacher, they'll get in trouble. It's basically forcing people to do something before they even know what it means. Once we are adults we should be able to make the decision to say or to not say it. Kids should be required to do math, reading, socializing with other kids, and gym. IMO kids aren't old enough to decide if they want to recite a Pledge that they may not want to stand for.

    The reason why I think it's forced is because people can literally get in trouble if they don't say it.

    ---------- Post added 30th Sep 2016 at 04:57 AM ----------

    People freak out if you don't put your hand over your heart, if you don't stand up, or if you don't recite it out loud. We technically have the freedom to choose what to do but attitude says differently. Let's say you don't feel like supporting the Pledge's words because of its racist past, because of the USA's inequalities in the present, or because of the wars that the US has caused. But you are forced to stand for the Pledge anyway because of high societal pressure. Other countries wouldn't care but the USA is strict about this.
     
    #36 midwestgirl89, Sep 30, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2016
  17. ABeautifulMind

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    This thread got a little long and I dont really want to read all of it, but I did skim through a lot...

    My 2 cents:

    Government should not mandate patriotism, Government should earn patriotism. Our government clearly has not done that recently.

    Truth and Justice for all, is currently a lie....

    I know the protests are not over this, but given:
    Drone wars killing more than half innocent civilians
    Extending our 2 war quagmire to a 4 war quagmire under Obama
    6.5 TRILLION dollars lost by Pentagon, NOT INCLUDING THE COST OF THE WARS.
    Destroying the treaties made with indigenous Americans
    Refusal to hold police accountable for murdering citizenry
    Trump being a Presidential candidate
    Clinton being a Presidential candidate
    Clinton getting away with rigging an allegedly democratic primary process
    Trump getting away with Trump
    Supporting Isis all because Assad wants to build an oil pipeline through the shia islam "crescent" countries instead of Sunni islam countries
    Possibly starting WW3 by bombing a battalion of Syrian Armed forces, claiming they thought it was FSA....


    This is just off the top of my head... Didnt bring up half of Clinton and Trumps problems...

    So again, what has our country done to earn patriotism?

    Freedom is usually a big argument, but well... I see a lot of freedoms being taken away right now... For example the freedom that is in my opinion one of the most important, free speech... I have seen videos of protesters being arrested for displaying free speech in a no free speech zone. IN FUCKING AMERICA... I have seen protesters attacked by attack dogs from private security where the police did nothing... I have seen the National Guard brought in to remove peaceful protesters, using the National Guard as a weapon against the citizens of this country displaying freedom to peaceful assembly, as if using the police wasnt bad enough...


    No, I must politely disagree with those who believe that we have some sort of patriotic "debt" to our country. When my country fights for me, and stops destroying peoples lives in other countries, and stop giving fucking corporations ALL legislative power and benefits, then I will have a renewed sense of patriotism like when I was in junior high and high school.... But the America I see today is very different than the one I grew up in, and a lot of it has happened under the DNC command... Where we thought we were getting a progressive, we got a war hawk, spineless politician who refused to fight the RNC on ANYTHING...

    That is my 2 cents.... well, its probably more like 10 cents :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
     
  18. ABeautifulMind

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    At the same time I want to point out that I can see that people in the military consider the flag a little differently than people who didnt serve. While I personally see protesting the flag or even burning the flag as a sign or protest against the government, and NOT the military, a lot of military personnel take it as insulting to them... Some feel like they fought for that flag... Which is where I have a differing opinion, I like to think they fought for what that flag represents... And protest, which is one of the most American things a citizen can do, is what that flag represents. I believe they fought just so when their were serious problems in our country, people could protest in whatever way they see fit, including sending a message to the government by refusing to participate in their pledge of allegiance...

    That was more like 2 cents :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
     
  19. Quantumreality

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    LOL! Yes, it is a choice, Quem. And while I was arguing more to the extreme, I always respect the rights of others to make their own choice, regardless of whether I personally believe in that choice or not.

    That's a fair enough point. I've never actually seen anyone be forced to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, but when I was a kid I also don't remember anyone ever even indicating that they were uncomfortable reciting it either. No one should be forced to recite it, IMO.

    Patriotism should come from the heart. It can’t be mandated.
    --------------------------------------
    AlexanderDragon,

    Sorry for kind of hijacking your thread. I apologize for that. I was enjoying playing the foil.

    Overall, this definitely isn’t a big issue – even for me.

    But to answer the other part of your original post, the student that said he hopes that anyone who doesn’t stand for the pledge gets hit by a bus is just wrong. He can argue with those who don’t stand, if he wants, but there is no excuse for violence or death threats over this issue.

    ---------- Post added 30th Sep 2016 at 07:23 AM ----------

    Not quite, ABeautifulMind, we fought/fight UNDER the flag of the United States, but we fought/fight for the US Constitution and to maintain the freedom of the American people.
     
    #39 Quantumreality, Sep 30, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2016
  20. PatrickUK

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    It's tricky for me because I am a republican in a country that has a constitutional monarchy. I don't hate the Queen (Elizabeth II), but I dislike the institution that she heads. I would rather have a President, with limited political powers.

    Where possible, I avoid occasions where there might be a requirement to stand for the national anthem or pledge allegiance to Her Majesty... her heirs and successors.

    I'm also a Christian who prefers not to take the Bible and "swear by Almighty God".