1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

The Gay Search for Masculinity

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by Tomás1, Jun 23, 2016.

  1. OGS

    OGS
    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2014
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    728
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I don't think there's anything wrong with having a type. The thing that does bother me about these sort of discussions is the extent to which people seem to have largely unquestioned assumptions about the people out there based on very limited experience of a person's actual behavior. The two areas where I see it the most are the masculine/feminine discussion and the whole discussion of the "scene". Obviously everyone has that sort of list of things they are looking for and a list of turnoffs. That's fine--but I do think it warrants looking at how extensive that list is and whether it's really warranted.

    As far as the masculine/feminine thing goes I feel like people have a list of the things that a masculine guy isn't allowed to do and they're out there crossing people off the list. The idea that you can tell who is masculine or feminine by looking around a bar or a beach seems just ridiculous to me. And in the end I do think it comes down to fear one way or another. Because the fact is that most people are some sort of mix.

    There probably are people out there who never have a masculine or feminine impulse but I think they are pretty few and far between. What is however really common is people who really effectively police their own behavior. Now of course we all do that--if I do this people will think I'm gay, if I do this people will think I'm stupid, or frivolous, or effeminate, or whatever. But in the end the more someone does that the less authentic they are and frankly the more afraid they are.

    It seems to me that in these discussions masculine almost always comes down to a list of things that one doesn't do. You can't really look across a crowded room and see that someone is strong or resilient or responsible. But you can sure see the way they dance (OMG I'd never do that) or the way they dressed that evening or whatever. There's an endless list of things one can immediately see that "disqualify" one from being masculine. But when you shop around for people who don't do certain things in the end you are shopping for the people who most effectively police themselves. You're shopping for the people who operate the most from a position of fear.

    In theory it seems like a perfect recipe for failed or superficial relationships and, surprise, surprise, in practice that seems to be what it produces.
     
  2. OnTheHighway

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2014
    Messages:
    3,934
    Likes Received:
    632
    Location:
    Florida
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I second SF comments on this. Albeit a different experience, my thoughts are consistent here.
     
  3. Tomás1

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    382
    Likes Received:
    74
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    This is something that separates a bi man from a gay man. The gay man, in being part of the gay community, there's a lot of permission & encouragement to be effeminate.

    The bi man is freaked out by this … aka "Could I end up being a Sister of a Perpetual Indulgences?"

    I don't think it's internalized homophobia, more personal preference.
     
    #43 Tomás1, Jun 26, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2016
  4. SiennaFire

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Messages:
    2,161
    Likes Received:
    246
    Location:
    Boston
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I agree that associating with other gay men coupled with loving yourself as a gay man makes it OK to be effeminate.

    Just to clarify, are you saying that you and other bi men are freaked out by being effeminate, which you then go on to call a personal preference in the next sentence? I think that you need to take a second look at this. Freaking out is a pretty strong response to a preference; I don't freak out because I prefer English muffins over bagels. My take is that such strong reactions as freaking out are more likely generated by an equally powerful source, namely IH.
     
    #44 SiennaFire, Jun 26, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2016
  5. gravechild

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Messages:
    3,425
    Likes Received:
    110
    Gender:
    Androgyne
    Gender Pronoun:
    They
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    A few people
    It's ridiculous, the extent men police one another, even within the gay community. Masculinity must be a fragile thing, if we're constantly on the lookout for "threats". Honestly, it seems our idea of what makes a man is to be the exact opposite of women in every way possible.

    To my knowledge, there isn't a lesbian equivalent to "only masc" on dating/hookup apps. Butch women aren't stigmatized the same way. I fell into the trap of assuming the LGBT community would be some sort of haven for going against societal norms, but was sorely disappointed to see the same trends repeated (at times, even more rigidly enforced).

    Someone else on the thread mentioned only being attracted to straight men, but as soon as they were revealed not to be straight, he immediately lost interest. Seems a bit of a paradox, but at the same time, makes sense: if you chase something you know you'll never have, there's no risk, technically. At the same time, I think it also comes with idealizing "real men".

    Personally, I find masculine men a bit boring. They can have nice bodies, and I wouldn't mind hanging around with them, but they don't hold my interest the same way as those who might be labeled "boyish" or cute. I guess I like that play between masculine and feminine energies, which isn't surprising considering I don't fall squarely on either side.
     
  6. Nickw

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,335
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Location:
    Out West
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Or could this simply be that you want to share activities that you value with your sexual partner.

    A big part of why my marriage lasted 30 years is because my wife and I are both very fit and enjoy the same physical activities. All of my friends do the same. I am attracted to this lifestyle. If I can't shred with a dude on the mountain, I am not interested in sharing intimacy with him either.

    Why does this have to be deeper than just..."I find fit guys hot and I want them"?

    Look, I have no problem crying with my straight friends...held one while he died. We hug when we meet and all treat our wives with respect and caring. Feminine traits in hard ass bodies?
     
  7. Tomás1

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    382
    Likes Received:
    74
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Freaking out at becoming a "Sister of Perpetual Indulgences", as an example of feminity, was probably not the best example, cuz it's extreme.

    The main distinction between the bi and gay man, is that the authentic bi guy has interest in women that the gay man does not have. Because he's walking on a knifes edge w women, over his interest in men, in general he won't want to appear femme, which equates to being gay.

    Most women do not want to be in a relationship w a bi man. For a bi man, it's not an easy dance.
     
    #47 Tomás1, Jun 26, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2016
  8. Nickw

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,335
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Location:
    Out West
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Effeminate vs feminine? I am thinking of how one expresses their feminine side as a "masculine" man. The guys I find attractive will lie down and comfort an injured child, fix a meal for a group of friends and family, or hug a weeping friend...feminine qualities. But, not dress or act effeminate to express their feminine side.

    Beingdude...do you believe a bisexual needs to put on a masculine act to attract women? I agree that "appearing too femme...gay" would certainly be something my wife would not like of me. But, it is not who I am or who she knows me to be.
     
  9. SiennaFire

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Messages:
    2,161
    Likes Received:
    246
    Location:
    Boston
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I understand your point, and clearly it's not easy being bisexual since you straddle both the gay and straight worlds.
     
  10. jnr183

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2013
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    US
    This is an interesting discussion and covers a topic I grapple with routinely. As I have come out more and more I have found that it has helped me to try and not categorize people as gay or straight or masc or femme or anything. I think I needed to make an active effort to simply look at them as a person. In the past, and to a much lesser degree now, finding out that a man was gay was --bizarrely-- a turnoff. It ended up generating a lot of stress and frustration. When I meet somebody new I sometimes ask myself --based on the way the person is acting-- could I envision that this person (not knowing their sexuality) is 100% straight or 100% gay. In most cases, I can make a case for either scenario or somewhere in between. It has helped me to realize how much overlap there truly is and has helped me to not be so quick to label and categorize.

    That said, at this point I think I have concluded that I am attracted to a particular 'type' of guy. I think nearly everybody has a 'type' of some sort. Most guys that are my 'type' tend to be straight. It is what it is. They aren't all straight. Nothing is black and white. Mostly it's a matter of getting to know them as a person. I don't think it has anything to do with homophobia --although for a long time I worried that it did. I think it's simply a function of a number of intrinsic and extrinsic factors that ultimately dictate my preferences.

    I started frequenting a gay bar in my neighborhood a few months ago. I found out recently that the bartender always assumed I was a straight friend of the guys I was with. It surprised me- as I stop by more weekends than not and have been doing so for months. The same thing happened with another guy that I had hung out with on multiple occasions. I didn't take it as a positive or a negative. I'm just trying to act like who I feel that I am and not making any pretense about how myself or anybody else is supposed to act. And I think that's a good thing.
     
  11. Tomás1

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    382
    Likes Received:
    74
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Nick: "putting on an act to attract a woman" sounds really bad, like I'm not authentic. We all choose how to act, whether conscious or unconscious. There are feminine straight men, as well as masculine straight women. It's best to be yourself. Yet there are choices, & if you're interested in connecting w a woman, as a bi man, you'll generally have more success if u lean to the masculine side: open the door for her, dress conservatively, & not be overly emotional. Once u establish a connection, u have to be yourself, for the relationship to work.

    I also think that it's best to best to be present, in the moment, not have a script, & open your heart.
     
  12. Nickw

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,335
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Location:
    Out West
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Being dude

    Sorry not what I meant. The question more has to do with in general does a bisexual need to be concerned with his presentation? I am sure I am aware of this right now as I am reinforcing my straight side with my wife!

    I can only be so authentic myself. At some point my authenticity means providing my wife what she needs too...a straight husband...some of the time. That's my deal. It feels like me to do this...so it must be authentic.
     
    #52 Nickw, Jun 27, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2016
  13. Shorthaul

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,498
    Likes Received:
    231
    Location:
    Idaho
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Totally lost, its the 21st century, there is no only dudes can be X and girls can be Y. I can rebuild engines and 18 speed transmissions, navigate narrow city streets with 60 feet of trailer behind the truck, swear like a drunken sailor and I do not feel that my masculinity is threatened by the fact I can make a pretty good chocolate pie or do laundry.

    I also don't see it as feminine to be concerned about a friend's feelings or welfare. Being a decent human being, doesn't require stereotype gender roles. Holding the door for other people isn't just for gentlemen, its simply the polite thing to do.

    Big muscles and a certain attire do not make one masculine, just like being the opposite does not make you fem. It goes much deeper than mere outward appearances.
     
  14. nerdbrain

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2014
    Messages:
    536
    Likes Received:
    112
    Location:
    New York City
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Some people
    I'm going to write this even though I expect it will piss a lot of people off.

    I see masculine and feminine as a set of contrasting characteristics. In practice, either a man or a woman can embody these traits. However they have been stereotyped on a gender basis over the years:

    Masculine/Feminine

    Calm/Hysterical
    Rational/Emotional
    Confident/Insecure
    Idealistic/Materialistic
    Natural/Artificial
    Leader/Follower
    Maturing/Decaying
    Creator/Consumer

    Personally, I find all the masculine qualities attractive and all the feminine ones repulsive -- whether they are in a man or a woman.

    However, there is a separate set of positive feminine qualities which are more typical of mothers:

    Nurturing
    Healing
    Bountiful

    These I find very attractive in women.

    Anyway, that's my 2 misogynistic cents.
     
  15. Nickw

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,335
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Location:
    Out West
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    I think we have two different definitions going on here. One, is that men can have, and should have, both feminine and masculine traits (as defined by psychologists not our perception of what they should be...man/woman is not the same as masculine/feminine). This is manifested in how they interact with others. i.e. a line backer can exhibit a great deal of the classic feminine traits of caring, softness in speech, apologetic inflections etc.

    Then there is the appearance and mannerism definitions. Men may want to appear one way or the other for whatever reason. We all have a look right?

    I believe they are two different things. I prefer the masculine vibe especially with a good dose of feminine personality traits. I have also met some effeminate men who display less of the classic feminine traits than the linebacker discussed above.

    We might all be saying the same thing?
     
  16. LostInDaydreams

    Moderator Full Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2016
    Messages:
    4,300
    Likes Received:
    2,096
    Location:
    UK
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    The construction of these stereotypes of masculinity and femininity have been reinforced over time primarily to maintain patriarchal control, and in turn social order and stability.

    I'm not starting an argument (really, I'm not), but I'm interested to know; if you can recognize that they can in theory be exhibited by both men and women, then why not think of them as gender neutral personality traits?

    I'm not questioning the validity of your notions of masculinity and femininity, because everyone has their own ideas, but to me they seem very extreme, and very black and white.

    With regards to motherly qualities, these traits have always been associated with femininity because producing children (an heir) has been constructed as women's primary role. Whilst the importance of this to inheritance and stability has caused these characteristics to be more greatly associated with femininity, I don't think they've been denied to masculinity either. Men are fathers, and historically have been the heads of their families, responsible for providing religious guidance. I think that's nurturing.
    And healing - historically, most physicians have been men. It's the professionalism of the healing, and access to education, that created a gender gap here, not the healing itself.

    For me, I can't see how 'hysterical' and 'emotional' can be attributed to femininity today. Traditionally they have been associated with femininity because men's bodies have been understood as more stable, whilst the womb was thought to move around inside women, causing the characteristics you describe.

    Again, 'follower' comes back to patriarchy, and I won't got through all of them, but they all enforce the idea that masculinity is better than femininity. I can understand the historical stereotypes, but personally, I can't see how they can be applied today.

    That's just my opinion, though. As you were. :icon_bigg
     
  17. Tomás1

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    382
    Likes Received:
    74
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I don't see it as 2 different things. The whole m/f thing is stereotypical. Each of us is unique, a blend of m & f. It all has to do w your intention. If you're male & on your 1st date w a new womam, it's probably best not to wear a pink shirt, unless you've got extremely big balls. Once you're in a relationship, it's different, as I'm sure u know.

    If you're out for the 1st time w your hot new bf, it's probably best not to talk the whole time about your wife - it'll drain the energy out. Once you're lovers, it's different.
     
    #57 Tomás1, Jun 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
  18. Nickw

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,335
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Location:
    Out West
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    This is what I am saying.

    Maybe the best (neutral) example I can think of is the Spanish language which is a mix of the masculine and feminine. A big (manly..oh boy!) singer can deliver a song filled with the "feminine" parts of the language describing his love for his son.

    BTW, I have a pink shirt my wife bought me...back to therapy.:dry: